HOLY COW! What a weekend!
I preached til I thought I was gonna die… and maybe some people wished I would have… but I’m not gonna! 
We’ve been working through the “Shattered… He’s Not Who You Thought He Was” series, and this week we talked about the fact that Jesus is relevant!
If He is viewed as irrelevant (which He is by many) it is because His body, the church, has projected Him as such! These guys wrote a song about it (see it here).
How?
We’ve whined and fought over petty crap… while the hurting continue to hurt.
We’ve argued about what kinds of songs to sing… while people go to hell.
We’ve argued over where the communion table should go… while people live in pain.
We’ve spent hours discussing the fact that the preacher wears jeans to church… while people throw up their hands in disgust and walk away from the church AND Jesus cause… He’s coming off as irrelevant!
The Scripture lesson came from John 9:1-16 the story of Jesus healing the blind man!
I find it interesting that in this story (read it at the link above)…
- (v. 2) the disciples looked at the blind man (a person in need) and got philosophical, “Why do you suppose he’s blind?” (i.e. what’s the source of evil here?)
- (v. 16) the Pharisees (i.e. the religious leaders) looked at the blind man after Jesus had healed him and got theological, “He healed him on the Sabbath… it doesn’t count.”
- (v. 6-7) Jesus looked and saw a man in need and moved past the discussion phase and touched him! He got practical! Do you wanna talk about relevant? That’s relevant!
Often the church of today makes Jesus look irrelevant because we spend a lot of time fussing over things that won’t matter a bit when we stand before God, and we miss the things that matter… like touching hurting people!
Bottom line… God won’t ask what kind of clothes we wore to church or how many hymns we sang or what the light setting was at church! He will ask what we did for people? How many people will you bring to Christ… that’s what matters before God.
OK, enough of the sermon rant, if you were here this weekend you’ve already heard it!
Other highlights…
- 805 people ministered to this weekend!
- The Relevant Worship concert last night was great! We had app. 500 people here… of all ages!
- Nine people gave their lives to Christ this weekend! That’s nineteen new converts in the last two weeks! Thank you Jesus!
- If it doesn’t stop snowing… I’m gonna… AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Filed under: Northgate News, church
The snow MUST be stopped!!!! As far as the 19 new followers of Christ this weekend, HOW GREAT IS OUR GOD!!! Loved your message!
I am really bummed that I could not go to the concert last night. I had to work but my spirit really wanted to be with fellow believers.
Thanks Paul for the sermon synopsis since I missed it! Sounds like it was a good one and will have a lot of people thinking and talking.
The concert was AWESOME!!! It was a great time and what a great message those guys have! Can’t wait to hear them again at KingdomBound!!
We do serve a WONDERFUL God!! Now that we’ve brought in these 19 new people for Christ, it’s time to begin the building process. Hopefully they can find somewhere to get connected at Northgate! Do we have a follow-up plan to contact these people and get them connected? This next phase of their walk is just as important as bringing them in and Northgate should be prepared to provide the support they’ll need to strengthen their relationship with Jesus.
As to the snow, I totally agree with you!! I really don’t like living in Western New York sometimes!!!! Hopefully spring will arrive soon.
Have a great week Paul!!
Oddly enough this doesn’t make any sense to me. Yet,Exactly….what is the fuss? If it is irrelevant then why doesn’t the communion table stay where the people want it? Why can’t the church sing the songs that still worship the Lord? Really…Why does it matter? Why can’t the people have such little things that bring them comfort and encourage them to bring others? I really don’t envision anyone throwing up their hands in disgust because we sang a song we like or because the communion table that says “REMEMBER” on it. So why does it need to be put away? If there are offensive issues shouldn’t they be taken care of?
What will make people throw up their hands in disgust is the dissention amidst the congregation. Speaking of the congregation, if the mission is to truly bring people to Christ, why would one want a miserable congregation? I am a modern traditionalist. I like to keep some things that are traditional for perhaps my own security. Now maybe that makes me “selfish” or “insecure” or “immature” according to previous entries in this blog, but it makes me more powerful as a Christian in my walk and my approach to people is confident and meaningful. I don’t think that requires a degree in any college to realize that. So what truly is the struggle about here? If our mission is the same then why is their a struggle at all. My hands never went up in disgust because of a song or because the communion table was out and had beautiful flowers on it. An “unchurched” person wouldn’t know the difference. If we want to be so simplistic why did we ever build a church as we have. We could have built a barn.
Do those flowers and the bible take the focus off of someone else up front..hmmm now that is a consideration. Do the members of Northgate have any ownership to the mission? I should think so.
We are to Bring and Build. Do the members of Northgate have any say? I haven’t seen any. If these areas are so petty why are we not “allowed” to have them? I think I have seen more irrelevance towards the Lord and it hasn’t had anything to do with the Table or the Songs. I was raised to have respect and reverance and our little fireside chats minus the fire are not what I call respectful. But hey..this is just the opinion of a lowly congregation member of My Church. It has been made clear that doesn’t matter. How can so many people feeling the same way be wrong? Why make changes before it has stopped working? If it isn’t broke then don’t fix it is exactly a fitting comment for this if I have ever seen one. But that isn’t the first time it has been said and not the first time it will be ignored. Yet aren’t we just so happy with ourselves?!
If there is dissatisfaction, if there is distraction to the mission of the church, if it a large enough problem that it has to be included in the sermon and several pastoral blogs you have to look at the leadership and direction that they moving the church. Sounds a lot like “damage control”. Paul knows who I am and we have had several conversations on this; however our issues go deeper than placement of the communion table and what he wears to church on Sunday.
If there are distractions, issues that take the focus away from the mission and effectiveness of Northgate, then shouldn’t it be up to the leadership to resolve? He refers to the “issues” as being petty or irrelevant, and in the large picture they may be, but to people that have been members of the church for 20 or 30 years it is not a petty issue. These issues hold meaning for them and to dismiss them as petty….well… it is ignoring their feelings or needs and could be considered disrespectful.
If people are throwing up their hands in discust and walking away from the church then I think that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
And, you brought it up, we discussed and I told you that I abandoned my walk with Christ about three months ago. I guarantee you that it was not because you wore jeans with holes in it. Issues that we had in the past and the resultant feelings that I had that were not Christ-like and they were too much of a distraction for me. I refuse to pretend to be something I am not and could not carry on a relationship with Christ and carry those unresolved feelings. I accompany my wife to church on Sunday, that is why I am there. Our last conversation helped me to realize what I need to do to get back on course and maybe someday I will make it. We all need to examine our motives and the direction that they take us in.
So maybe the issues are deeper than the jeans you wear, or the placement of the communion table. Maybe they are irrelevant indications of deeper concerns.
I am glad that through the efforts of the church, people are accepting Christ and starting their walk with him after all that is the mission of the church.
Ouch… My heart hurts.
I know that having a new pastor is difficult. I started going to a church where my husband and I LOVED the pastor and his wife in both the pastor/wife relationship and as best friends. Granted, we started there AFTER said pastor, so any initial “new pastor in town” growing pains were “over”. Matter of fact, it was that pastor who prayed with my husband when he gave his life to Christ, the week before our wedding, with his wife and many others praying around him as well. I will NEVER forget that scene, forever etched in my memory. That man holds an exceptional place in my heart.
Fast forward to new pastor. I come to church one beautiful Sunday morning to find the altar where my husband (and countless others) knelt down and rose up, never to be the same again, quite unceremoniously in the parking lot, beside the DUMPSTER!!
Yes, there was a new railing in the sanctuary, donated to the church and all, but that old altar MEANS something. To me anyway. I liken it to the LORD telling Joshua to have the 12 leaders take stones out of the Jordan, and build an altar. REMEMBER, He said.
Right now, that altar is in my shed, in various stages of disassembly, that I need to get my act together and finish, because several members of the congregation want a piece, for their own “stones”. Actually, one couple who had to relocate, took a piece with them, to remember by.
Quite honestly, I figured the pastor would think me off the deep end, but he didn’t. The altar was just an altar to him, but he recognized that it wasn’t to me. That makes me glad.
But, as I sit here typing this, and thinking, the LORD had Joshua build an altar from those stones, to remember, but the Israelites didn’t stay huddled around them. They built it, and moved on. Now, there’s a thought…
Love to All!
Oh, and someday, I am gonna take a piece of that oak to that pastor. He might need something to remember us by, too.
Good stuff brother, remember whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger! Keep preaching like it matters, passion has a way of making things relevant!
Some people just don’t ever want to be taken out of their materialistic comfort zones. Having the communion table at a certain spot or whether the pastor wears jeans or slacks is a inconsequential matter to our true mission as the body of Christ.
nymustang, these issues in American churches in general are petty. There will always be issues that a person will see a different way than their pastors. I sure don’t agree with every single procedure and plan that goes on at Northgate, but that’s ok. If we were supposed to always stay in our comfort zone, why would we even go to church?
Aaron,
You totally missed my point. I agree that the materialistic issues are petty but…they have been made a point of discussion.
I have been a member of Northgate for 28 years. I have been involved in the transition from a traditional worship style to contemporary, the expansion of the old campus to the planning and construction of the north campus. There could be issues that go deeper than placement of a table or the dress code for the pastor and the rest of the people on the platform. I have history with the church, with past and current leadership. There could be issues deeper than placement of a table or the dress code for the pastor and the rest of the people on the platform. I have seen five different senior pastors at Northgate, the only constant has been a core of people that are still there. A mentor I once had taught me that every battle is not worth fighting, select the battles that you want to fight. I do not take isssue with the dress code or furniture arrangement, but others have so it may not be as insignificant as you, I or Paul are making it out to be. So…attention, time, words, and efforts are spent on these battles rather than focusing on the true mission of Northgate. If there are people in the church (body of Christ) that do not want to be taken out of their “materialistic comfort zone”, it is very shallow of you to criticize them for this.
I do not want to discount your opinion as every opinion is important and you will never get 100% agreement on all issues. It is however, important to step back from points of contention, look at all sides of the issue and base your determinations by looking at the issue globally. Respect and try to understand the different positions that are taken in the these issues. When you do that you will find resolution and move forward. Discount them, and you will forever have a battle.
I’ve been realizing for a few weeks now – befor the current sermon series – that my relationship with god does not need Northgate. I can use Northgate as one of many tools to strengten my walk with God. The few issues I have with this congregation, I refuse to let get between me and my God. I am comitted to this church body, and so I will choose to let the “disputable matters” go. (Romans 14 i think, maybe 13) I sat in on afew of the planning meetings years ago in the south campus with Max and Mitch, and they knew then that these dispuable matters were coming. They told us to be ready, and I pray that I am.
NY Mustang, I am distraught that you feel away from God right now. I know you are a man of strong conviction and charachter. I will be praying for you.
NYmustang is absolutely correct. It isn’t about materialism. It is about people feeling trampled on though. There is an abrasion towards what we feel, perhaps a callousness. God isn’t about being offensive. When an offense is committed how can anyone not stop and take notice and continue to say I am on a mission of God? Jim is right. No relationship with God should be dependent on Northgate. The church body isn’t limited to only Northgate either. The underlying issues are large and will get larger when they are not addressed. So we can choose to ignore them or we can choose to give them some attention and hopefully work them out. Just so many people with the same concerns and yet they are not given any heed. I used to go to the church on looked forward to returning. That has changed. Now it doesn’t really matter if I do or not. I have been letting these issues go and I have tried to keep my focus on Christ. I have listened and tried the suggested approaches but end up feeling generally manipulated. I haven’t been upset by what we have but by what we haven’t. I like the contemporary service but why doesn’t it have to go so far? Why can’t there be a blend? When I mention what I feel a lack of I get a callous reply telling me that I am materialistic. I really don’t think of myself as that shallow and that someone who doesn’t know me can judge me that way isn’t fair. Does anyone even care about the people who are at the church who are hurting. I read the blog and I shudder. There are people hurting right underneath your own nose but they don’t seem to carry any importance. I thought, obviously, mistakenly that I was attending a caring church. I trusted that people would be considerate towards other people feelings, Since we are the “Christians”. I try very hard to not be an easily offended person. I listen closely to others feelings and let them know that they matter. I am not a perfect person or Christian by any means. I thought that we were to be like Christ. I don’t see Him as abrasive, uncaring and unlistening. The big push for something better, something newer, something bigger is leaving people in the dust and what I see and hear is that some will leave and thats okay. What a response. What a disappointment. For some strange reason, having a blended service..a mix of contemporary with a bit of traditionalism seems to be an outrageous request. It only benefits everyone yet it is ignored to constantly find all that is better. What can be better if if everyone attending is benefiting and bringing people and showing the Love of Christ. I can adapt to change. Use your turn signals….go only 3″ at a time…Share the thoughts, something..do something. It is still important to communicate to the Northgate community and keep the congregation on board with the staff. This is all just to much for me. :^(
Time for a group hug.
Obviously there are issues and concerns that mean more to some than to others. How they are addressed is up to Paul and his staff. Talk directly to them, try and understand their position, goals and priorities. I hate to hear a spectator question or second guess the decisions of a coach for the sport that I am watching. Who has more information, insight, knowledge of all the elements of that team than the coach? In that same breath that does not mean that the decision of the coach is not always wise and they will be held accountable for their decisions after the game. If you are a player on that team and you do not keep your coach informed as to issues that affect your role, then how can the coach be held accountable? Talk one on one and let your feelings be known. Do not let ill feelings build up inside you, it will only destroy you, I know.
The other day I needed a certain video for a class. It was very hard to find in the local area so I looked in the yellow pages under video rental.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT!?!!!
The telephone company changed video store rentatls (V) to DVD rentals(D). Can you imagine. I was not asked about this change and I was appauled that what I knew, was now changed I had to go all the way back in the letter D. I think I will send the telephone company book people an email.
It was easier for me to find Jesus than a Video.
My first church was in a pizza place! I wish that I would have taken part of the garbage can top that the pastor used to preach from.
I was a member of a church from birth to age 20. When I was 19 MY Pastor had to leave and they brought in a new Pastor, I was crushed. I let my feelings of tradition and normalcy cloud my judgement of this man just trying to get himself aquainted with a new church and congregation. I was so hurt by these things that felt huge to me I never stopped to think about what this man was going through. I know now that he was doing what he had to do to make this church a place he could be a part of and to shake us up out of our comfort zone. Every now and then we have to stop and think that maybe God is sending us a wake up call.
Is there any reason why there can’t be one traditional service each weekend? I know of one person very dear to me that simply doesn’t care for the contemporary style that would attend and by the looks of what I’m reading, it looks like she’d have lots of company.
Also, I see lots of emphasis on bringing new brothers and sisters to Christ, (which is wonderful and I work at it myself daily)but…
I’ve been reading these comments and listening to the message from the pulpit and I get the feeling Northgate is going to end up with a ton of new members, very little support to help them grow, and even fewer matured members. Without elders, it’s hard to gain wisdom.
Change simply for change’s sake isn’t an effective operating plan.
Wow guys, I feel really crushed by the comments here. I don’t attend Nothgate, but I read Paul’s blog a lot. I have been through several church splits as a congregant; a couple of them dealing with the same issues as it seems you are. My parents, who you would consider traditionalists are still trying to deal with the pain. I, who I would say likes change, even change for changes sake, have been hurt and have had to deal with a lot of emotional baggage.
I have not attended a regular service for some time. I have fellowship with a small group of people with very little structure and it has been amazing. I’m not promoting anyone to leave Northgate, I just want you to know where I’m at right now. Call it transparency.
I am in a time of reconcilation with the institutional/conventional church format. A book that has helped me immensely is a book by Neil Cole called Organic Church. I found myself not so much looking at the church and wondering what went wrong, but looking at my life and what God wants to do with it. Hugely encouraging.
Hang in there guys. I will be praying for you, because even though I’m in WV, we are all still part of the body of Christ.
Mike
I’ve been hanging back and reading and trying to follow all of this and I am praying. I’m not going to pretend to know all the issues and I don’t even know who all the people are that are involved. I’m not about to “choose a side” or get into the debate but I do have a couple things to say.
I’m thrilled with the changes at Northgate. When I first started attending about 8 years ago, there were about 200 people per weekend, now we’re 4-5x that. I know it’s not about numbers, but in some ways it is…people are coming! We are having a huge impact in the community and in the kingdom of God. We are reaching people who have never been reached..and that is awesome! I am willing to sacrifice if it means that someone else will get the feeling and know Jesus the way that He has now come into my life. I liked the way it was but I also like the changes!
In saying that, I can still also see all points of view. Personally, I have grown as a Christian the past few years, both by what I’ve gotten from ABF’s, music, sermons, all the “extras” AND by reaching out to others. In reaching out, I have become more accountable for some of my own growth because I am now held more accountable as I mature as a Christian. Both ways to grow are important. Reading different Bible versions regularly, reading books, listening to all types of music, talking to and meeting with fellow Christians, and looking inward at ourselves can all help us to grow and be ready when that one person who God has put in our lives to touch comes along.
What saddens me is watching and reading my friend and fellow Christian taking a lot of heat. Again, I don’t know all that has occurred, and don’t pretend to know, however, I think we need to step back and evaluate all of our own responses. I don’t know what has been said or done, but I do know a pastor who is on fire for Jesus and for people. I don’t know if things could have or should have been done differently, but step back. Every week I am challenged, not always comfortably, to continue on this faith journey. I also can’t wait until I become a “mature” Christian to reach out…because I’m not sure we really become mature. In being challenged, I am forced to move forward. I want others to know what I know and it might take stepping out of the box to make that happen.
This church is awesome! It’s not about one person…there are many staff members and many who oversee. The biggest common denominator for all of us is we know Jesus…let’s push to do what He would do..because He can make great things happen at Northgate!!
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Wow, Paul, you’ve stirred the pot, it sounds like. I am a fellow pastor ministering in PA. As I read your blog and the responses, it’s just plain sad. Thankfully, there are those responding to your recent message who have a vision for others and for growth. However, it seems that many are self-focused and have forgotten that church is NOT about us, but about HIM. If the church’s mission is to follow Christ’s command, we must be about HIS commission. He came to seek and save the lost. When we abandon His mission, we’re in trouble.
I agree with you that the church focuses in on petty issues, which will have no eternal value. Yet, because we’ve always done it like this before, it has become sacred (whatever “it” is). The Pharisees became entrenched in their traditions and Jesus strongly rebuked them. If Jesus came to church today, would we be rebuked just like the Pharisees? Very likely.
I rejoice with you, Paul, as you’ve shared with me the victories and growth that God has allowed Northgate to experience. Keep up the good work, and don’t let the vocal minority discourage culturally relevant ministry.
God Bless.
I have no beef with the changes at Northgate or with Pastor Paul. However, it is obvious that some others do. I must respond to “Pastor Rocky Spear”. Just because people disagree with the church board and/or staff regarding changes in the church does NOT mean they are selfish and petty. People need to feel at home in their church and connected. Too many changes may make people feel disconnected.
One pet peave of mine is that when people disagree with leadership they are put down. Church members make up the church…and no offense to pastors, but the congregation pays your salary. They have right to have a say in the decisions being made. Last I knew, church government wasn’t a dictatorship.
The way I see it change for the sake of change rarely works, change without the consent or cooperation of those being changed usually ends in disaster and change being forced is the worse of all.
That being said, after the damage is done one should do what one can to rectify the situation, not gloss it over and bring in more change as that confuses the issue further.
Some things went well, some not so well and some were and still are not even close to what they were. A lot of things were fixed that weren’t broken but now are and aren’t being fixed.
That is where I am at this point. I have not yet given up but I see only tiny glimpses of light at the end of the tunnel.
Thanks Patti for your comments!
I have another response to Rocky Spears comments. He says “don’t let the vocal minority discourage culturally relevant ministry.” Unfortunately it’s the “vocal minority” that gets put down by the leadership as being petty and non-relevant. However, many times it’s these people who have been given the task of speaking for the “quiet majority.”
When problems in the church are being discussed at the pulpit, rather than in private, they’ve become big enough to be considered “relevant.” It’s unfortunate when this happens, and it can lead to some not-so-pleasant consequences to the church itself. Hopefully this does not happen at Northgate and the “vocal minority” are taken seriously and their concerns are given the attention that is needed to avoid any devastating effects in the future!
I think Northgate is due for a period of “calm” after what has taken place in the last couple of years! This does not mean that we ignore our mission, but that we continue to bring and to build using the resources and talents God has provided for us at this moment, without forcing more changes just to try and stay “culturally relevant.”
Who’s culture are we trying to be relevant to–just the group of people between the ages of 18 to 35? Jesus was relevant to ALL AGE GROUPS and I think if Jesus came to church today he’d be a little disappointed that some are being told they’re “not relevant” and therefore aren’t important.
Amen to Maureen’s comment. If the pastor has the need to stand before “the” congregation not “his” congregation and address overall the complaints that he has had, it shows that there is a need to stop and listen and make appropriate response.
For the congregation to be told that he isn’t going to respond to any more emails etc. Is that really Very Godly? So since the pastor’s door has been shut and we aren’t going to get any responses in email, who do we call? Are we not to have any help or questions? Oddly enough the sermon was regarding relevance. I hardly expected to be told how relevant we aren’t. I hardly think it right that people not attending our church can have a voice about it or about the people who attend it.Especially when the people who do attend obviously don’t have a voice about it. How can people outside encourage to continue when they have no idea? I also agree very much so with Dan’s and Patti’s comments above. Also, I agree that while continuing the mission of Christ that Northgate needs a calm. I don’t see that coming however by the current blog about the coming weekend. I feel overwhelmed by risk already.
If I may jump back into the fray as kindly as I know how. To preface these remarks, I did attempt to listen to a download of Pastor Paul’s “Relevant” message, but for some reason, my computer did not allow it. I tried.
However, I did go back over the many blogger’s comments once again. Those who are making the strongest statements about “petty” issues, please step back and hear yourself. The specific issues I discovered as I reread the blog were “communion tables”, “music”, “altars”, and “pastors wearing jeans.” When the mission of the church is to be about the eternal destiny of souls, how can the aforementioned items not be seen as petty? None of the four specific items have one ounce of eternal consequence. How sad that Satan so easily sidetracks us from the real issues of life.
Paul (the Apostle, not Pastor), says in 1 Cor. 9:22(b) “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” The fact is, in order to reach a post-Christian culture, we may need to evaluate our traditions (not Biblical principles) to see if we can more effectively attract those who have not heard or who might hear for the first time. Change is good. We change in virtually every area of life…except the church. Shame on us if we do not keep up with our culture in order to impact it and shape it with God’s principles.
One blogger stated “I don’t see him (Christ) as abrasive, uncaring and unlistening.” I agree with that, if the blogger is referring to Christ’s interaction with sinners. However, in no way can Christ behavior be seen as unabrasive, caring and listening to the religious order of that day. He call the “spiritual” people of that day “hypocrites”, “snakes”, “whitewashed tombs”, “sons of Satan”, and more. He was so “abrasive” they ultimately crucified Him.
“How can so many people feeling the same way be wrong?” The previous quote comes from an April 16th posting. Surely, this is not a serious question. Look once again at Jesus’ life story. There was a group of people called Pharisees. They and the co-horts they stirred up were “many people feeling the same way” about Jesus. Were they wrong? Just a tad. They only rejected and crucified our Lord. This brings to mind the words of a song Debbie Boone sang years ago, “You Light Up My Life.” The words are, “It can’t be wrong, when it feels so right.” Frankly, it can be, and is.
What would happen if instead of all the energy spent opposing a pastor were to be refocused onto Jesus’ mission? He tells His followers to “Open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.” John 4:35
I want to encourage, not attack. God is bringing new people under the influence of your congregation there (PTL). Step up to the plate and, for the sake of the Kingdom, lay aside personal preference and walk alongside a brand new attendee or new believer and mentor them for Christ.
God bless.
So Pastor Rocky, what you are saying then is this is a numbers game. As long as the number of people being attracted to the church as a result of being “relevant” and a “risk taker” outnumber the people walking away, everything’s good.
At least in the cases I am most familiar with, this has nothing to do being a “Pharisee” and coming to church & sitting in the front row to be seen. It has a lot more to do with finding comfort within the church building.
There are church services locally where parishoners dance around and sing in tongues and play with venomous snakes. I wouldn’t go to them so I guess that makes me a Pharisee because I don’t like that style of service. Do they serve God any less? Are they not relevant in their rendition of the scriptures? They certainly are taking far more risks than anything going on a Northgate.
I wrote earlier that having one traditional style service on the weekend seems to be a very practical solution. Then again, maybe it’s too much of a risk to have relevancy for those parishoners as well.
Just to clear things up a bit, I have no problem with where the communion table is, Pastor Paul wearing jeans, no crosses in the worship center (although they are there now), the music or the fact there is no altar anymore. I disagree with Pastor Rocky about them having “not one ounce of eternal consequence” because if those things are affecting people’s desire to worship at Northgate, they obviously could have an “eternal consequence.” They are becoming stumbling blocks to a brother’s faith, which the Bible warns us of. Obviously some of the things have to deal with personal comfort or tradition for the “seasoned” Christians of the church. As Pastor Rocky wrote, “we may need to evaluate our traditions (not Biblical principles) to see if we can more effectively attract those who have not heard or who might hear for the first time.” I don’t believe the new believer or new attendee to Northgate cares where the communion table is, or that Pastor Paul is wearing jeans now, or that there are or aren’t any crosses in the sanctuary or that there is no altar. They wouldn’t care because they’ve never been to the church before and to them they are just asthetic things. However, to the person who has been attending Northgate for years and has come to enjoy these things about the church, they are extremely important!! I think the point is if it doesn’t affect the newcomers and it does the regular attenders, then why not leave these types of things alone in order for all to be happy??!! Those types of changes do not make our church more “culturally relevant” and I don’t believe they “more effectively attract those who have not heard or who might hear for the first time” as Pastor Rocky says.
These types of changes are considered “change for the sake of change,” not change for the good of the people. Maybe they’ve made the new pastor more comfortable, but not the church members who have come to appreciate them, and if those decisions are hurting some, why not realize the mistake and change things back? Why not try to avoid conflict, rather than welcome it, especially when it’s over things that he and others may deem “petty”?
My concern for Northgate is the seeming lack of respect for the people of the church that have been there for years (and maybe not so long even). Our mission is “to bring people to Jesus Christ and to build them up in that relationship.” The leadership of the church seems to be completely focused on the “bringing” aspect and not the “building” part right now. Northgate used to be a very different church in that we had around 75% of the congregation involved in small groups or ABF’s, which is unheard of in churches these days (the norm is around 30% or so). We were sooooo proud of that and it allowed people to get connected individually even when they felt the church was rather large in numbers! Now the focus of the church is on the number of candles we have lit up front every week. Don’t get me wrong–I praise God for each and every one of those lost souls that have been found–but that’s the “easy” part!! Now is when Northgate needs to shine and distinguish itself from other churches around so those candles keep burning brightly!!
It’s been mentioned before that if we continue to “bring, bring, bring” and provide no programs for “building” or alienate the “mature” members we have, Northgate will be a church full of babies with no one to mentor them into adulthood. Is that what we want for our church? I hope not! I agree with Kevin in that we can’t just focus on the number of people coming in to the church and pay no attention to the number leaving!! I don’t believe that’s what God would want either. I want to see Northgate continue to grow as it has been, but without losing some of the key lay people of the church in doing so!!
Let me end with saying I love Pastor Paul and his family and I think they are wonderful people! He’s young and he’s learning in the process and I pray he chooses to listen and react appropriately to the people who are hurting (not just the unsaved hurting)!!
And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring… It seems that not much has changed since the early church. Whether the concerns expressed in this forum are legitimate or not should not be the focus, but rather what solutions can be found and what can be learned from this experience. Perhaps the example of the early church can help (And the saying pleased the whole multitude). Change and reactions to that change will always occur in the church. Pastor Paul will always be ahead of the congregation in implementing change and rightly so. Emotions run high. Motives are questioned. God is doing something phenomenal at Northgate. How the church chooses to address the issue of change will determine the future at Northgate. Pastor Paul would be the first to admit that he is fallable but it is interesting to note that nowhere on this blog has he attempted to strike back at his accusers even though his heart must be hurting. Are you will to help by offering yourself in service? You say, “It’s not wanted.” But are you willing to serve wherever you’re asked? I feel confident that Pastor Paul and his staff would welcome your help. Well, I’m off to the mall. I hear that you can buy a phone that works without a cord. Can you imagine?
NY Mustang,
I am sad about your decision. You used to minister God’s love and beauty to me in a deep way with your incredible talent. Maybe that doesn’t matter much to the other 800+ Northgaters, but it matters very much to me. I miss you. Please don’t stay away long.
[...] can’t believe all the action that this post is [...]
I tossed and turned if I should even ad to this mess!
OK if Jesus walked in Northgate I can almost garentee his feet would dirty
So are you going to JUDGE him? Or are you going to wash his feet?
I cant find the verse to back me up but it goes something like this
“The way you judge others is the way you will be judged”
Thats a little scary dont you think?
So is it really so bad that our pastor wears jeans? Come on people!!
Theres to many Indians and not enouph cheifs in this church.
so many people want to be heard in the church and again theres a verse for that but I cant find it to back me up!
pretty much in my terms women should sit on the right side of the church and keep there moouths closed!!!!
I know Paul and sherri personally and I wasn’t sure if anyone relized that they have a life outside of Northgate. Paul has 3 girls and a child on the way!! theres only 24 hours in a day people!!! when is Paul suppose to have family time with his wife and kids when he’s trying to deal with everyone dumping there problems on him. I just dont understand the fight!
Paul is a darn good pastor he is only human
Last i knew we are only human and we all make mistakes! to those who got it all together! You sound so evil!
Does pastor Paul have to live his life dealing with negativeness 24 hours a day!! NO !!! noone should No one could walk a day in his shoes!! and survive with out popin some valumes!!
I need one write now just thinking of what a horible world this is and how nasty people really can be.
Kristen and Max made the right move they got out why they could!!
To pastor Paul YOur a wonderful husband an awesome dad an inspiring pastor, a good friend and a true and honest man of GOD!!
Let people have there opinions and judge there not prepared for our Lords coming and dont let that fall on you. YOu and Sherri are wonderful people ! YOur wife is a very excepting women she is very understanding and furthermost she’s a wonderful wife and mother people could learn alot from her!
I just pray for you and your family Paul what an attack!! You just need to know your a good person!! Go with your dreams!!
Wow, I’m a friend of Pastor Pauls from way back, and an outsider to your church. So, let me add my bit to this. To those of you who have been in the church for years and have become very comfortable with your traditions and feel as though you have to have these in order to be a secure and effective Christian, I’m very sorry. You talked about how you need these things to be secure. What has happend to being secure in the fact that the Almighty, Everlasting, Long-suffering, God that we serve has redeemed us and made us heirs to His kingdom. We as a church body world wide need to wake up to the fact that church is not there primarily for us as Christians. Jesus stated that he came for the sick, not the healthy. As far as traditions go, it was a tradition in the temple to have money changers and the sorts in the temple, and we all know what Jesus did with them. He ran them out with a whip. Jesus was not into tradition. If so he would have never spoken to the Samaritan woman at the well, he would have never let His disciples pick corn to eat on the Sabbath, He would have never healed on the sabbath, He would not have forgiven the adultris woman brought to Him. You talk about an out of the box individual. That’s the Jesus that we all serve. And, the last time I checked our goal as Christians is to become like Him. Jesus was accused of being drunk and a glutton. Why? Because he broke tradition and spent time with sinners. Check out the new testament, Jesus had no use for the traditions of the day. Every chance he had he was condemming the religious leaders of the day. Why? Because they were caught up in tradition rather than seeing the big picture.
I’m sorry if I’ve come off a little harsh, but I have experienced what tradition can bring. I’ve been through a church that had more than doubled size in 2 years, but when all the sinners started coming and tradition was broken certain members rallied to keep their traditions causing a church split. I still know individuals today, (that having been 15 years ago) that are very far from God because of tradition. I have struggled from that time until this past January when God delivered me from my bitterness toward the tradion keepers. Thank God for what He has done in my life. I know many people who are not comfortable in coming to church because they don’t have the nice clothes to wear. I can tell you that if they new a pastor was in jeans preaching on sunday, they would be much more receptive to coming to church. I struggle with this same issue in my church. My pastor would love to hang up the suite and tie except for weddings and funerals, but we have some long time members who just can’t get past comfortable traditions. I ran into this issue just a couple of weeks ago when I had individuals from my work who are unchurched coming to a church function, and the first thing they were worried about was what do I have to wear to your church. HOW SAD IS THAT.
To those of you who are comfortable in your traditions, I pray that you spend time talking to God about what He wants you to do. Should you be so concerned with traditions, or should you thank God for and support a pastor that has one vision for his church, and that is to reach a lost and dying world.
To those of you who support you pastor, I pray that God will strengthen you in your resolve to reach the lost and dying world
I find it very strange to be blogging, for I have never done this before. After reading the many messages about what the people of the church are feeling and saying, I wanted to share some of my thoughts. I grew up in a very traditional church-but all people believed, prayed and were with Christ. I think that if you are a Christen that is what makes you one. I had a very hard time coming to Northgate, because it was so different from the types of churches I had attended previously. However, I do believe in God and his word and went for spiritual help. The more I went the more I became used to the change. I must admit that I still long for old hymns, or saying the Lord’s prayer, and some of the other more traditional qualities. I hope that has a new parent, God helps me be a better parent, a more loving wife and a person who is always seeking Him. I find it easy to get what I need from Church, even though the congregation has grown and times have changed, as have many other things. Change is good, but I don’t think that we need to change everything if it is working. I pray for those that seem to have lost their way and for those that have found it. Today I feel I have become a “risk taker”. Paul spoke about that today and by expressing my thoughts and ideas for others to read, is a huge risk for me. I will pray for Paul and his family as they take their risk and begin a new endeavor.
Just a few more comments re: this issue. Again, I’m an outsider going on what I’ve read from the above blogs. It really does pain me to witness this strife over what has been deemed important by some and petty by others. To those of you who are traditionalist, I understand that there are comforts in the traditions that you’ve grown accustomed to, but if you will step back and listen to what you’re saying re: the traditions I think you may be suprised as to what is coming from your mouth. I don’t want to come across as belittling or degrading, but your words are selfish. They are all about what will make you comfortable and make it easy for you. This is not what church is about. We need to be shaken from our comfort zones and realize that we need to do anything (bar sinning) to reach the lost. There are thousands of churches out there that do not have a pastor with the vision that yours does. I have known your pastor for years, and witness him go from a down and outer who hit rock bottom because of major sin in his life to a man that I look up to and respect. If anyone knows what needs to be done to be relavent to the down and outers, the unchurched it is him.
I pray that you will not disregard what I say, but rather ask God to search your heart and see if you are more interested in what makes you comfortable or what needs to be done to reach the lost. I think it’s time that the world wide church of God get vertical rather than horizontal. We need to get our focus off of us and onto Him and His goals.
Again, I know that I’m an outsider, but I’ve set through a church split over petty things, which when we view our comfort in the light of lost souls they are petty. Satan will use whatever he can to divide and conquer. Please don’t let that happen to your church.
[...] After church thoughts (3-16-07) – in this post I summarized the sermon “Jesus was relevant”. This post has seen the most feedback of any post in the history of this blog. [...]
Paul I am so proud of you for following the Holy Spirit.
I must confess that I am selfish I will miss your teachings, you have been a vessel of the Holy Spirit to me and my family. Refreshing!!!!
I do not conform to church and I too will go where God leads me. I have worshiped in large churches and living rooms, park pavillions and even outside of bars! The only thing that stayed the same is what was the focus and that was Jesus Christ.
Dan B. my prayer is your prayer- it is not only for Northgate but there is a crisis in churches all across this Country. Young people do not feel welcomed, judgement greets outsiders at the door, there is a disconnect of insiders and outsiders.
One recent post said if Jesus were to walk in the door….
What?????
What made anyone think he wasn’t there?
He is in the hallway listening to complainers…
He is in the bathroom watching people fix their hair just right…
He is in the cars as people put objects under the seat so that others cannot judge….
He is sitting next to the single mother who is alone.
He is sitting next to the man who is afraid that he will be laid off…
That is the Church I want to be part of….One where Jesus is.